National ID Card Petition

[Robyn]

Hi Ellen,

Only one comment seen so far - the poster won't be signing the petition because she feels that the government may interpret that as her supporting ID Cards ...

I am not quite sure who you mean?

If you mean myself (as the person who posted the Petition, in the name of GSUK) then my name is firmly at the top of the list.

Yours,
Robyn

[Grace]

FWIW - I have sent the letter, and added the following as a postscript:-

I guess that I am an anomaly – diagnosed with gender dysphoria (and all the agonising that goes with it), treated with hormone therapy, had surgical genital reconstruction, still married and unable to apply for a GRC, still chromosomally 46XY, and with a ‘Boy’ birth certificate. You would not know me from an average female if you saw me! Even regular females do not question my provenance. Why on earth would you want to make me, at 70 years old, have to carry a ‘Male’ ID card? How absurd!

Is that too harsh?

Grace

[Alison]

Post deleted

[Pollik]

I've done NuttycaTS too.

Grace

Thanks Grace - I was wondering about them

[Pollik]

FWIW - I have sent the letter, and added the following as a postscript:-

I guess that I am an anomaly – diagnosed with gender dysphoria (and all the agonising that goes with it), treated with hormone therapy, had surgical genital reconstruction, still married and unable to apply for a GRC, still chromosomally 46XY, and with a ‘Boy’ birth certificate. You would not know me from an average female if you saw me! Even regular females do not question my provenance. Why on earth would you want to make me, at 70 years old, have to carry a ‘Male’ ID card? How absurd!

Is that too harsh?

Grace

Not at all - as you know, I am in the same predicament. :/

Polly

[Pollik]

...We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to ensure that the safety of the Transsexual, Transgender, Intersex and gender-queer Communities is not placed at risk by insisting that harmful data is kept on the National ID Database and that many should carry hold 2 ID cards, identifying them as belong to both male & female genders...

1/ Could we please define "harmful data" and why? I would say that gender is what you want to show. Since every human being's gender is a blend of female & male, why indicate it and how indicate it?
2/ Why does gender need to be indicated on these cards (keeping in mind sex ≠ gender)?

In terms of defining the harm, I don't think we can, although perhaps we might be able to give some examples.

Why does gender need to be indicated? Well, it doesn't , of course, except for purposes of discrimination. There is another thread on ID cards here, viewtopic.php?f=11&t=21&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30 (this thread focusses on the petition).

Quote from that thread:

An alternative solution that would prevent all of these issues is for the ID Card not to have the gender actually stated on the card. This is similar to the position in other countries, including Germany. It is not foreseen that this would create any issues, and would enable male, female, dual gendered and those who view themselves outside the gender binary to be respected. This would resolve most of the issues faced by individuals within the groups discussed above and as such, would be the most preferred solution for points 1 to 5 above.

Realistically, part of me feels that we should campaign for the achievable - I am not sure that bueaucrats would be easy to convince that the gender marker is not needed - I can see them thinking "but we have always had gender markers!" Another part of me thinks we should push for the removal of gender markers now, because at it is logical to do it at the time when the operating environment ID cards is still fluid.

Whichever route was taken, there will always be those who disagree with an action, the wording of a letter or who to approach and how. It would then be for them to decided whether GSUK (or any other campaign group) adequately meets their needs. It is intention that any decision making process will be in the public eye, but no guarantees can be given that any particular decision will meet with the approval of any particular member, much as we might wish otherwise.

[Robyn]

Hello Emma,

First of all, apologies for not responding sooner. I hope you will appreciate that I have been busy since the petition went live. Along with many others on this group, I have been rallying the troops to get as many as possible to join this campaign.

Polly has responded to much of your question already, but I will target once aspect which possibly could be expanded upon.

1/ Could we please define "harmful data" and why? I would say that gender is what you want to show...

Specifically the GRA, under section 22, makes it a criminal offence to divulge whether or not a person has a Gender Recognition Certificate. This was put in the GRA to stop people from being "outed" in various parts of our daily lives.

The draft proposals specifically state that the National ID database will keep details of your Gender history. They do not state what data will be accessible and by whom or for what purposes.

The danger exists where people who transitioned many years ago and for all purposes have effectively moved on. If this data is there, then it may be picked up by someone and passed on to another person. People have been victimised because of their gender history.

For those people who do not conform to the Gender Binary, there is also risk that they too may be placed at risk for the same reasons.

I know people who have had their personal effects stolen. This has resulted in them becoming the victim of hate crime as the personal effects included details of the Gender history.

Another aspect is that if people are travelling abroad and they are questioned by the local authorities over something that they have witnessed. The authorities may want to check their ID card. The person may well have two ID cards. This will result is them being quizzed and ridiculed in many places alone.

Once the ID is confirmed, it may come back and again show details of a person's gender history. This could result in the problems mentioned above.

Hate crime does happen in this country. People have been made homeless. People have been hurt and even killed. There is action being taken to address this issue but some things do take time.

Yours,
Robyn

[Pollik]

On the issue of 'outing': my primary ID card will show me as Polly Conroy, male - this is the card I will use for travel round Europe. I am outed.

Perhaps I could use my passport (female), but with every other Brit using their ID card, that fact that I use my passport and am therefore 'different', my risk of being outed is increased.

[Alison]

Perhaps I could use my passport (female)...

One thing I have not mentioned, is the fact that the Passport and ID Register will be the same: one of the questions is whether or not you will be able to renew your passport with the F marker once your record goes on the ID Register. The way the legislation is written does not state that, but it is a very real possibility. The first mass wave of cards will be issued to passport applications - you can choose an ID Card, a Passport or both, but only for a period of 2 years and after that, you will have a choice of having a passport with your ID Card.

I am not convinced that they will issue the passports with a different gender marker to the ID Card. Implication? If we do not get the ID Register to recognise your acquired gender, you will loose the protection you already have.

Alison

[Pollik]

Deep joy.

My options seem to be dimishing rapidly - deep depression or raging panic.

(Searches internet for smilie :cutownthroat:) (Edit: this will do )


Polly